Posted by Anthony in HAWPcast on November 18th, 2010
We’ve now managed to go from posting too infrequently to posting way too goddamn often.
But that’s alright.
Regarding “Faggot”, think about for example, people using “jewed” all the time regarding getting ripped off. Or Gypped.
BTW, it is cool beans how you did a double hawpcast
RE: Fag/Faggot/Gay vs. Nigger vs. Any/every other racial (for lack of a better umbrella word) slur
I wince every time you guys – or anyone else – uses any of those words. I especially hate it when gamers use them with abandon. It’s completely unacceptable and it bothers the crap out of me.
Furthermore, the fact that you guys are so casual with using those words and how, in a very roundabout way, you’re defending using those words through the argument that “they don’t carry as much weight” leads me to believe either you don’t actually know anyone who’s gay in your circle of friends and/or have never seen them getting insulted with those slurs.
Here’s something for you to think on: I know all the racial slurs. I’ve heard them all. I don’t use a single one. Literally ever. If I carried around a sheet of paper and marked off a check for every time I used a racial slur, whether spoken or written, in an offensive manner (i.e. I still sing the lyrics to Cee-Lo’s Fuck You with no problem), my sheet of paper would be blank this time next year. I simply never insult someone based on race/ethnicity or sexual orientation. How about you?
It’s really not that hard to curb and it’s way more clever finding new ways to insult people either by mocking what they’re doing or how they say something. I often insult intelligence levels, ’cause there’s an unfortunate overabundance of people who lack it.
Your “I am better than you under all circumstances because of my blank piece of paper, the end” argument is persuasive.
I never said I’m better than you (especially under all circumstances) but i did essentially say that I have never been – and very likely will never be – in a position where I’ve had to justify to myself and to others why using derogatory epithets in my speech was okay.
By the way, I’d like to think that I was a little more eloquent in my tirade than I seem to be in your glib paraphrase and that I did leave the topic open to debate rather than shutting you down. Not all of us have the privilege of having our own 70 minute podcast listened to by thousands of fans, you know.
That being said, feel free to ask me how I dare talk to you as I have. You are, after all, the creator of HAWP.
“You probably wouldn’t use those words if you knew a friend who’d been slandered by them” is a fair point.
“Here’s something to think on: I’m a really awesome person, why can’t you be” is high-horsing bullshit that doesn’t actually make a point.
I think the point is that you shouldn’t speak like a piece of shit
Ugh. If you really want to remain contrarian so that you can feel better about yourself, feel free to do so. You’re missing my point anyway.
My point was two fold: To make you aware of how often you use the terms and to show you that it’s not that hard to eliminate it from your speech.
In high school, I used to have a teacher who would repeat the word “like” any time his students would say it: “It was, like, totally cool.” My teacher ended up saying “like” A LOT and made the rest of us realize just how often we were using the word. Most of us chose to weeded it out of our vocabulary and began sounding less like dumb kids and more like adults. Obviously, I can’t follow you around repeating “gay,” “fag,” or “faggot” every time you say it, so I came up with the paper idea. It was the best I could do over the bloody internet.
The point of my “check it off on a piece of paper” argument was for you to make yourself aware of just how much you’re using derogatory epithets as substitutes for words in the English language like “bad,” “awful,” “disgusting,” “unfair,” “cheap,” “bullshit.” You know, words/slang that actually mean those things.
And once again, allow me to REPEAT myself since you insist on perpetuating this fallacy: At NO POINT ANYWHERE in either of my posts did I say I was better than you or more awesome than you. Please stop projecting and putting words in my mouth. I was simply pointing out that you guys use the terms A LOT, both in your episodes and in your podcast and some people don’t appreciate it and/or feel it’s necessary.
But look, if you feel you ABSOLUTELY have to use them and if you feel you ABSOLUTELY have to put me down for calling you out on it, wicked: Feel free to keep doing so. I’ve tried to make my point in the best way possible, and as evidenced in this thread, there are those that agree with me.
But, you’re the creator of HAWP, livin’ in ‘MERICA, you certainly know best. Keep saying whatever you want to say, however you want to say it.
You can cringe at hate, that I understand, but cringing at a word said without hate behind it? That’s irrational and childish.
When Ash says the word Faggot at the beginning of the episode, or when Anthony uses the phrase “Indie-Fag” do you honestly think they’re using it as a hate word against gays? That doesn’t even cross my mind. If I’m wrong and they’re secretly homophobic, well, that’s their prerogative and I disagree with it, but I doubt it.
I think it’s safe to assume Anthony and Ash aren’t filled with hate. They openly talk about being possibly bisexual without worry. I don’t know if that’s supposed to be for a laugh, and if it is, that’s fine, it’s still funny.
I think saying something is off-limits for comedy is ridiculous. It can be said in poor taste, sure, but it’s not always offensive.
I think giving words power serves to promote their effectiveness at actually offending people, which is the opposite of what we want.
I think the thing that gives them power is the better part of a century of use to marginalise and encourage violence against gays.
Maybe I’m wrong though, maybe it’s the disenfranchised group’s responsibility to not be offended by the majority deliberately using a word they know is horrible
They weren’t defending themselves saying it, though they did admit to saying it frequently. They were actually having a productive discussion on whether its better to over-use it so it loses its power, or block it out all together.
Any word can be offensive with the right amount of spit behind it. Any currently offensive word can be rendered obsolete by changing its meaning. My cousin who has been my best friend since i was little is gay and uses the word fag on a regular basis himself. He only finds it offensive when said in an offensive way.
You’re entitled to your opinion and your emotions, but you should try to be a bit more objective about things or you’ll end up arguing with everyone you come across. Even though you didnt SAY you were better, it was implied with your example of how pristine you are because you never use racial or sexual slurs. People dont relate to the “perfect example” they relate to the person who has made the mistake and learned from it.
(to clarify, I’m not yb, I didn’t say that stuff about the paper)
I’m glad your cousin isn’t offended by the word fag. Good for him. Lots of people are, and I *hate* when straight people try to explain that they’re allowed to use it (or gay as an insult, for that matter) because they don’t have hate in their heart or whatever. For one thing, this is the internet, I don’t know you or what’s in your heart, and for another thing, if you’re the kind of person to drop fag every fifth sentence, maybe you do have some issues with homophobia you’re not aware of. And while it might not be an expression of active hate it certainly fosters such in real bigots, makes them think that their views are socially acceptable.
By the way, there’s a huge difference between a gay person using the word fag and two straight people casually calling something they don’t like gay.
And it’s all very well to argue that we should use the word over and over again to change its meaning, but a) why would we want to, I’m always uncomfortable using words that are derived from racial slurs; b) I can’t think of one case of a word being used so much it stops being offensive (gypped is closest but maybe that’s only not offensive because it’s acceptable to be racist against gypsies); c) if we can all use it until it changes meaning, why don’t we just all not use it until it loses meaning, wouldn’t that be better for everyone; and d) you’re not the one the word is a slur against, so advocating that everybody should say the word over and over is kind of a dick thing to do. Because you’re not the one who’s going to be hurt by the policy, y’see.
SUMMARY (because I’ve written so much I need to remind myself of my point): don’t say fag, don’t use gay as an insult. unless you’re gay. if you’re not gay, it makes you seem like a homophobe even if you’re not (but you probably are). if you have a podcast, you’re knowingly using language that upsets people (for totally legitimate reasons). that’s a dick move.
(btw it’s totally cool to do any of this stuff in an actual HAWP episode, where the whole point is that ash is a monster. just not so much in conversation)
yeah my bad, realized i replied to the wrong comment after i posted it already. FW to yb.
sweet. Make them every day!
What is the”vegetal test?”Am I the only one who’s never heard of it? Not sure how to spell it, and repeated google searches haven’t helped
Actually, it’s “Bechdel.” (beck-del)
Keep doing the HAWPcasts this frequently! And more old stories – they are the bomb.
HAWPcasts are the best! More than once a week is just plain awesome!
Well, yes…O’ that careful balancing act we all do between our ambassador selves (the one who wants that deal with cartoon network !) and the all-knowing child-jester selves. Or, dare I say it, the struggle between the right and left brain (OR : the hedgehog and the fox). I like to say those racial slurs as a way of airing the trigger responses in people that you know damn well obviously still have tremendous sway in the collective. Otherwise why would saying them still make for awkward belabored podcast exchanges ?
*Blatantly homosexual remark for irony*
Not way too goddamn often! Your HAWPcast is inexplicably entertaining.
Awwwwh yeah, two in one week! What a nice treat.
Instead of using the word “gay” my wife and I now usulize “That’s so Emma and Julia” thanks to this gay commercial
err “utilize” that is
I wouldn’t give a flying fuck about the comments about swearing if I were you. The thing that really hurts about these words are how they’re said, not the words themselves. And people can put that venom and malice into any word. Look at any political debate.
So, I have a fair number of friends who are Indian and the best response I’ve heard for being called exotic is: “Exotic describes food not people”
To be honest, as a gay man and rights activist myself, HAWP is the only situation in which I don’t really feel offended whenever you guys make gay jokes (which is a lot of the time). Y’know why? Because it’s just part of your art, part of Ash’s character. Hell, I even found the Gears of War episode to be hilarious.
The thing is that your videos are works of fiction, and the characters are heavily fictionalized versions of yourselves. You are promoting the use of “gay” as an insult just as much as South Park promotes kicking babies. Do we see lots of people doing that?
The only problem I have with the word is when people use it casually in conversation in place for “stupid”, which I don’t believe you guys have done very often in your HAWPcasts. The way you even (in EVERY single HAWPcast) mention how people who think gays are lesser in some way are idiots actually makes me expect that you two will bring out some videos for the Trevor Project’s It Gets Better campaign. I don’t really think any icons in gaming or the like have done anything for it, unless I’m mistaken.
“actually makes me expect that you two will bring out some videos for the Trevor Project’s It Gets Better campaign.”
hnnngh no. sorry for assuming, but as far as i know, they’re both pretty much straight (aside from “i’d make out with this celebrity” hyperbole that everyone does) and cis. “it gets better” isn’t really for people who aren’t queer; what would they say “gets better” for us when they’ve been on the “better” side of the spectrum their whole lives?
if i’m wrong, and they have faced homophobia/cissexism, then ok. otherwise, noooooooo
Actually, one does not have to be LGBT to do a video for It Gets Better. The ones I know personally who have made videos for it have all been heterosexual, expressing that not everyone is going to be a dick.
Straight people can still help struggling gay teens.
Would they even, like, care about us? Joe Biden just made one. Kinda weird to go from that to me and Ash.
I mean the guys organizing the project, that is. I’d love to do one but I dunno if they’d care/let us.
I don’t see why they wouldn’t let you guys. It would be ridiculously counterproductive to an organization like this to reject people willing to help. Absolutely anybody can make a video!
don’t get me wrong, it’s great that straight people want to support us, and yeah, i know that they can contribute if they want to. but the point of the project is to show real LGBT people who have suffered through real discrimination and made it, and i can’t help but feel pretty :/ when straight people come in with “well we’re not all bad!” or whatever. we know. that’s not really the point.
it’s even worse when they try to compare it to them being bullied because they’re nerdy or something.
oh, here, this explains it better than me
You do raise a good point, but as the article itself says, video’s like Sarah Silverman’s are still great additions. While heterosexuals don’t necessarily have to share their own experiences with discrimination, they can still speak out against homophobia and that environments where discrimination are tolerated to a degree (such as schools) will not last forever. I guess the way I see it is that any little bit helps.
Put them on shirts that will show them! I`ll take two please!
Yo. You guys talk about story a lot, and tend to like a lot of things that I like. I have a suggestion. Go read every book by Brandon sanderson, starting with the mistborn trilogy, than listen to his podcast “Writing excuses.” Not only are his books fucking great, but his podcast makes me so motivated to write. Awesome pants. Go do it.
Thanks for the info Lauren. Never knew about Writing Excuses until your comment, and now I’m going through all their podcasts. Great find.
I just discovered them as well. Thank you Lauren.
I don’t know about you guys but I would love to see an artistic rendering of the God Train chasing Anthony down.
Recently found out someone I knew was a Young Earth Creationist.
I respected her beliefs and never bring up anything religious now.
But this really common for me, living under the Bible Belt. Also lots of racism here!
I love the idea for HAWPQuest. Just saying.
Obligatory sound off on the nigger/faggot issue. I think there’s that cliche failure to distinguish between nigger/nigga and faggot/a funny use of faggot. I know “a funny use of faggot” sounds kind of ridiculous, but there’s a difference between the hard “Faggot” and saying something which is obviously intended to be innocent and ridiculous/ironic like “fagballs.” I myself am a bisexual white male. Of my black friends, not one ever calls another black person a Nigger. They call each other “nigga” as a term of affection or just as a substitute pronoun, but when they call another guy “nigger” it’s intended to be just as insulting and derogatory as how white folks use it. Same goes for my gay friends, cracks might be made about how I came off as a little gaybones at a party, or how I went on a fagquest to H&M to get a new man-purse, but I never call anybody a Faggot. Neither do any of my friends. I cringe writing, reading, and listening to the words nigger and faggot. It’s true that they are just words, but they’re also the words that have been used to beat people to death with stones and bats. They scare the shit out of me, because there are lots of people who use them and don’t stop to explain what they mean by it.
I say this in a non-judgmental way, but just from the way you talk about how people might perceive those words (implying that you wouldn’t know), I got the sense that you aren’t close friends with many/any black or lgbtq folks. I suspect from Ash’s audible-cringe reactions that she’s had a little more exposure out in CA, at least with the gays. I’m not trying to come down on you or condescend like yb did, just letting you know that I’ve found that when you have a personal friend (and not some internet troll) explain to you how hurtful those words are to them personally, you’ll find you cut it out pretty quick. It definitely does change the way you hear the words and use them. I hope you’re hearing me as somebody who’s not mad or judging or acting superior (like some people, *cough* yb *cough*), but as somebody who’s just explaining what my observations and personal experience have been.
That said, I was still shitting-my-pants laughing through the rest of the podcast all the way to work. It would be amazing if you could keep podcasting at this rate, it’s easily the highlight of my day when it comes out. I would love it if you could yell “I CO-CREATED HAWP, WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU DO??” someday.
Very fair points — do you reserve that cringing and ire for the word “faggot” exclusively, or any use of “gay” as an adjective for silly/effenimate/whatever?
I ask — and not to make excuses or get myself off the hook — but I don’t believe I ever say “faggot,” but I’ll refer to things or people as “gay” with some frequency.
And now I realize I’m trying to barter my way down to some acceptable quota of homophobic vocabulary, which is pretty fucking dumb.
You know I totally have a double standard with calling things gay. I think it comes down the person saying it, and what I know about their intentions. I think that’s the real crux of the issue–the intent behind the words. I have friends who I’m out to who call things gay in a very tongue-in-cheek or ironic way. I have no problem with that, and I’ll jokingly call things gay myself when in the company of people I know won’t be offended, and who know I’m into dudes as well. It’s when it’s coming from a person who doesn’t know (or care) that somebody might be gay in the crowd, and are saying gay to mean “stupid, retarded, ugly, etc” (recognizing the irony of using the word retard) that gets me uncomfortable.
I think it’s because you can tell those people they have no sensitivity to why their language might make other people uncomfortable. I usually associate that kind of high-school usage with people who don’t know any gay folks, wouldn’t want to know them, and would be uncomfortable talking to them in a way that would challenge their preconceived notions. The kind of guys who have to qualify anything remotely complimentary to somebody of the same sex with “no homo.”
I don’t cringe when you guys say “that’s so gaaayyy” because I’ve listened to your podcasts and know the way you use it is ironic, and that you don’t hold any malice towards the gays. I can see though how a different person, somebody with no clue what you thought of gay folks, might hear you say that out of context in a pizza joint and have no idea how you meant it. In those situations, when I overhear somebody talking like that without any other cues, I tend to have to assume that they’re a bit of a pig and not really thinking about what they’re saying. It may be unfair, but the unfortunate reality is it’s difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to folks who you don’t know. Especially when your first impression of them is that they’re not going to be receptive to anything you have to say just because of who you are. I think a surprising amount of time is spent by lgbtq folks just avoiding trouble–not the fighting kind, but the day to day awkward interaction kind. I know I tend to avoid people who use that kind of language. Which is again a double standard, because I don’t mind my close friends using it.
I don’t think there’s a perfect way to handle it, which is why so many people just avoid it entirely. I’m not suggesting that’s what you should do, since I can say I’ve honestly never had a problem with how you use it, I’ve only sounded off because it seemed to be a topic of discussion in the last podcast. Take that for whatever it’s worth, I spend as much time processing it and wondering what’s appropriate as anybody.
So, what’s you’re trying to tell me is that I’m a little too… I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. How do you really feel about me?
No judgment from me, I respect how you argue for what you believe. I just think your approach is a little to vehement, and a little too superior/condescending. You’ve got a bad case of internet-itis. If you want people to listen and really hear you, then you have to talk to them like they’re a human being.
Fuck, reread both of my posts and I think I must have made like 8 grammar mistakes. Ignore me, nothing I say is valid. *sulks*
Not really relivant to this specific podcast, but as you guys are on the internet and talk about sexism I thought you should see this.
I despise Twilight.
My ex loved it… I never want to date someone who loves twilight ever again.
It’s really hard to find a girl who doesn’t like twilight.
She also liked Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.
She had poor taste in movies.
Just so you know, there are entire online communities of women who think Twilight is poorly-written, sexist bullshit. There are plenty of us.
But I’d like to meet one in person. Online relationships work for some… but I like to cuddle.
Very entertaining podcast. (^_^) I haven’t listened to one before and it’s funny that the one I listen to involves the issues of straight people using that slur.
If you’re at all interested in people’s opinons who are gay, here is my contribution. I personally feel like it’s one of those things where it’s ok for us homosexuals to use it and not heterosexuals. I wasn’t up in arms and I wasn’t angry at the times it was used in your HAWP episodes, but I also didn’t particularly like it or think it was necessary to be funny/be anything.
I never really find it funny when straight people use that word because it comes with too many… too much baggage of the negative type, regardless of the intentions of the user. The conditions I grew up in and deal with are less than supportive or understanding, so for me there isn’t a divore from the real meaning of the word when straight people use it, no matter what they’re trying to do with it. It’s a particular type of difficulty and daily struggle that the majority of the non-hetero, non-normative-gender people deal with. It feels demeaning when we still don’t have rights, still aren’t recognized as regular human beings and so forth to have to also ‘be cool’ with that word being tossed around like all of us are over the still widely used negative origins of it.
I do, however, find it hysterical when homosexuals use it in comedic ways. I myself use it almost everyday because I am one so I can and it’s funny to me to use it given those circumstances. I do, however, only use it with fellow homos.
It’s similar to the views expressed by some black people concerning the N word, the idea of them taking it back by adjusting the meaning for themselves. Non-blacks with half a brain would never dream to use that word lightly, nor in a public place. I think it’s the same for the slur lodged against us. Why are we the exception?
Probably cause it’s accepted to mock, stereotype and insult us.
Anyway, long ramblydoo.
Also, Ashly is studying in Japan? Huzzah, Japan! I did too!
Oh, and a side note, you mentioned gamers tried to do an inverse concerning that slur and their vernacular while playing?
I’ve actively used the word “hetero” in a negative way to describe things when surrounded by people who use ‘gay’ as a negative adjective. I went to a small, crazy little christian college (am not a christian, btw), because I am masochistic and because they gave me hella scholarships, but at any rate, the point being I’ve done that actively to shake people up and give them a dose of their own medicine. Most people just looked shocked and confused though. Not sure if it worked but at least it was momentarily satisfying.
Sorry in advance, I have to jump on the ‘gay’ ‘faggot’ bandwagon- this topic is really close to my heart, and not the least so because the first HAWP that hooked me was the Shadow Complex one. (Incidentally, this was the episode that cemented that you guys are totally ‘cool’ about it when you use those words.)
But if I didn’t have that kind of context- I wouldn’t be able to watch your show or enjoy your content with good conscience. If all I saw was you guys irreverently using the word gay as a negative without the context of your positive lgbtq comments- I’m just left with the /possibility/ that you’re homophobes- and that’s enough to make me uncomfortable.
I might be oversensitive, but in that situation, I get a negative tick that ruins everything. So it’d be like “Oh, Anthony’s joke was so jokes just now… But… There’s a chance he thinks I’m going to go to hell and that I should never breathe the same air as his children.” It might not be that bad exactly, but the effect would always be like a little “Aww, but…” after every time I’d see your material.
Before that episode, I never knew Orson Scott Card thought I was a genetic defect. My friends have been hounding me to read his books- now I just can’t. I don’t want to support the ideas of a person who thinks my existence is problematic. Even if I were to just read his books at the library, my lit analysis brain would be going off looking for any textual clues that this dood thinks I’m a mistake.
I know I shouldn’t be too worried about a creator’s political beliefs- but in my view, homophobia is an intensely personal one that deals with random people’s judgment about my life, my existence, and my happiness. In a nutshell, I’m really uncomfortable whenever I hear entertainers I enjoy use that kind of language. In your guys’ case, I don’t really care- since you’ve taken the time to show your actual beliefs time and time again.
Personally, I’ve used the word, “fag” a lot with a friend of mine — we’re both fairly liberal guys, but we’ve got vocabularies that were raised in the southern part of the US. We had a conversation about how, as neither of us were homophobes, using the word as a negative thing was kind of dumb, so we’ve begun replacing it with “pedophile,” as pedophile is pretty universally bad. So we get sentences like, “No Spider-Man ice cream at this ice cream truck? That’s so pedophile, bro!” and, “Quit being a pedophile and give me the Batarang” or whatever. I personally have never thought of your stuff as offensive, but even if it is, it’s written in a way that isn’t excusing that. Insofar as your HAWPcasts, I think anyone that hears them understands your intent.
Off-topic, but “Quit being a pedophile and give me the Batarang” is now my quote of the week.
On-topic, well… general agreement yay! I think they’ve gone out of their way to mention how they are not homophobes enough. Oddly enough, I haven’t found it counterproductive, like when white people go out of the way to tell all their black friends that they’re not racist.
Mega-Agreed (or Megagreed? Nevermind, that sounds like some sort of oil tycoon that murders people with bowling pins). There exists this whole thing of, “I ain’t racist, but…” that always seems to be followed by something racist, whereas this is like, “I’m not a homophobe,” and, in a separate idea that isn’t just trying to validate their Civil Rights Cred, they’re questioning the logistics of the word. The way I see it is that the use of the word should be shaped around your audience. If you’re a straight guy and you’re talking to a bunch of gay guys, calling them faggots is probably not a good idea, no matter how wacky you mean it to be. But as content creators, your audience tends to form around your creations, so I think that the Burches (Burches? Burchs? Burchii?) I think the Burchii should just continue creating the HAWP episodes as they envision them without feeling compelled to apologize.
Here in Britain, we don’t need to worry about the connotations of the word ‘faggot’, because it has one definition in this country: a damn fine dinner.
Non-Brits might get a dada-istic laugh out of seeing the word in such a bizarre context. On another note, cheers for answering my question, much obliged.
Many is the time I have gone into a supermarket and asked for a faggot with nary a second thought as to the connotation.
TIP: Don’t try it in Florida.
“Do you do faggots?”
“You callin’ me queer, son?”
“No no! I simply want something to wrap my lips around!”
And then a beating ensued.
Remember to ask for more sauce.
I should also point out that the shortened version, ‘fag’, is slang for a cigarette over here, so smoking fags actually means lighting up, not having a particularly barbaric lynching session.
I was going to save the more sauce as a “cream on my spotted dick” joke, but you got there first.
(for the unaware, spotted dick is a type of pudding. It is actually quite nice, despite the name)
These are easily the most interesting and insightful comments for a podcast episode I’ve ever read.
Also (and not to belittle the amazing conversation): Venture Bros, do you guys speak it? If you watch seasons one and two and don’t love them, you might not be human. It’s witty, full of nerd humor, and well-written, but I’m not entirely sure how it’s made it through four seasons already with its “sleeper” status.
Just curious, it seems like something you two would be all over.
fap fap fap
there are many more important things than HAWP to get upset about.
real fucking problems and real offensive shit like sarah palin as a presidential candidate, real homophobia and real racism, rapists in linkin park, and the westborough baptist church.
I don’t come here for serious business, I come for the funny-ass HAWPcasts and HAWP episodes. please don’t go changing your shit just because some folks have a way of speaking that is unlike yours and choose to criticize and/or take offense because they misunderstand you intent.
isn’t that its own kind of intolerance?
only you can prevent forest fires
ok, well then I think thats dumb. I’ve been called some nasty shit from some rude people but you yourself give whatever power you want to those words. whether you laugh it off, take a weapon against said bigots, or cry about it, its YOUR CHOICE.
u trollin awful
But it’s the speaker’s choice to use those slurs. And to say you give whatever power you want to words is ridiculous.
You’ve been called some nasty shit by some rude people; would you prefer that they didn’t speak that way? If someone you knew had a habit of casually saying nasty shit in an otherwise pleasant conversation, would you try to tell them why it’s wrong?
Now that I’ve dealt with nonsense like that I just choose to blow off the words themselves, and I wouldn’t bother trying to talk any sense to parasites like those who genuinely mean them.
to me talking shit/nasty amongst friends is actually a sign of a good close bond.
I honestly feel it comes down to the person and intent behind the words, but that’s just me and I can see your point sir. With great power comes great responsibility and stuff.
Though I feel like you shouldn’t trouble yourself by being offended by the shite that would say things like that to you straight faced.
i don’t know what you’ve been called, but the thing about slurs against sexuality/gender/race is that it’s not something that can be argued. if someone calls you an asshole then you can still rest assured that you’re not REALLY an asshole, that you do good things, and it’s generally not something that’s going to really be an affront to who you are at your core and make you worry about whether the rest of your life is going to be happy and comfortable.
when somebody is called, say, a “fag,” it’s insulting them for being THEM, and attacking something they cannot change or understand as false. it is NOT the same as being called generic names like asshole/idiot/whatever, because it’s taking what is completely true and turning it into something filthy that can be used against them. it makes people wonder if they’re ever going to live in a world that’s accepting and safe, if they’ll ever be able to live how they are without worrying about whether it’s going to get them attacked someday. for people who HAVE faced horrendous treatment because of their sexuality/etc, words like “fag” can even be triggering for them, making them RELIVE times where they were bullied, or disowned, or beaten, or raped, or nearly killed.
reclaiming is a nice thought and everything, and the level of offensiveness does depend on the situation, but saying that it’s “intolerant” for people to not like slurs is ignorant at best.
Ahaha this is so getting out of control, gay brains always win anyway
I thought it was funny even if it was at the cost of progress of a social paradigm that is in my favor.
i have commented before, so i am not just jumping on the bandwagon here.
to be quite honest, i think everyone has gotten a bit too sensitive about this in general. i am not saying that it is morally correct to say these sorts of terms at all (i personally don’t think so, but that is just me). however, this ridiculous “counter balance” that is happening is just as offensive in my opinion. “don’t say ________ because the people you’re referring to have very delicate feelings” is just absurd.
its like the condescending racism found in that crappy sandra bullock movie – we are promoting that “only straight white people can help them!”. i think most gay people have the self confidence to stand up for themselves. rather than have commercials with cindy mccain / other celebrities telling us “not to pick on the gays”, we should be promoting people / admiring people who stand up for themselves in their own communities, despite adversity.
so, in conclusion, if you want to say an “offensive” word, say it. if someone is so narcissistic that they think abstaining from saying words because it will “hurt the self esteem of the weak people it refers to”, well then that is a fucked up world view anyway, and at the end of the day, they are only avoiding verbalizing their actual thoughts.
however, if you want to stop saying certain words because you actually don’t think its right – that is your individual choice. in the end it all comes down to intent – why do you want to not say a word? if its because you actually disagree with it’s usage, go for it.
i don’t think HAWP has done anything that is all that wrong as there was no malicious intent. i primarily disagree with all these posters insisting that we tiptoe around others’ feelings.
anyway great ep
i assume that you are posting that because it is your impression that i am not understanding the situation in full, and rather not to support my argument. i was pretty certain i was clear, but maybe not -
i am saying that it is the INTENT that is the issue and should be the reason for changing verbal habits. i understand the concept of some people having unfair advantages in the world, however “i won’t say the word faggot because not saying it will help level the playing field” and “i won’t say the word faggot because saying it is the wrong thing to do” are two completely different ways of thinking. one, in my opinion, is morally correct, and the other one… not so much.
having the attitude that “what the all powerful “I” says will keep down the weak and submissive minorities of the world, so i’d better have mercy on them and watch my tone” is the DEFINITION of a false sense of superiority.
maybe you can point out what specific points i am making and object to them? i welcome your criticisms, but i honestly think you are misunderstanding my point if you are linking me to an article that largely reinforces what i am saying (or what i am trying to say, maybe i am being unclear?). actually engaging me in a brief discussion might be better than linking me to a random page without saying anything else…
i don’t see how “i’m not going to say this because it’s wrong” is not morally correct.
not every marginalized person is going to have the same views–some people self-identify as fags/dykes/etc–but that is for them to decide, and the “i’m just going to throw these words out there and screw anyone who’s offended” approach is not productive. it is not about one group being “weak,” it’s about respecting the fact that *we deal with more than you do*, and for many of us, hearing people throw “faggot” around like it’s nothing is uncomfortable and isolating. intention plays a small part, but it only goes so far.
negative things majorities say and do DOES keep minorities down. the fact of the matter is, we can’t do this by ourselves; majorities control everything, and we need THEM to change their ways before we’ll ever achieve equality. if the onus were entirely on minority groups to say “hey, stop doing this,” then we wouldn’t have issues with sexism/racism/homophobia anymore. this isn’t necessarily saying that not using the word “fag” is going to obliterate homophobia, but being aware of what you’re saying and why you’re saying it and how it affects people is a good approach for EVERYTHING, let alone when it’s an offensive slur.
it wasn’t my intention to sound glib at first, but to be honest, i wasn’t sure if you were coming from a place of anger and dismissiveness (saying “you’re too sensitive” set me off initially, as that’s a hallmark of tone argument) or if you would be willing to have a level conversation about this. even under anonymity, confronting these things is intimidating and draining. i’m glad that you responded to me kindly.
also, i’m not the anon below.
ahhh, ok, i apologize for sounding as if i was saying “THESE PEOPLE NEED TO NOT BE SO SENSITIVE”, because i agree that is usually what people who argue that “why isn’t there white entertainment television etc etc etc” say. i unfortunately did not realize this. i meant that everyone needs to be levelheaded about the issue rather than acting on emotion. i can see how it came across though, my mistake.
“i don’t see how “i’m not going to say this because it’s wrong” is not morally correct.”
i was saying that that viewpoint is the morally correct one. however, the order i said it in was faulty and i can see why you thought that. my mistake for typing quickly.
i agree that people saying harmful words does aid in keeping minorities / oppressed groups down, but i think that the mindset that supports using such vocabulary with malicious intent is the real problem that society has to deal with.
overall i think we agree though. however, i think that next time i comment i need to slow down and articulate my opinions more clearly, because i definitely see how you could take what i said to be misguided / harmful.
man the reply button goes away for me after a certain number of posts, but i’m responding to your latest comment lol
ok, i’m glad it wasn’t what i initially thought. however, it’s also worth mentioning that a minority’s opinion shouldn’t be less valuable because their tone was “too emotional.” being in a minority is, to say the least, like being perpetually cheese-grated. what people frequently assume is that majority and minority groups are entering these confrontations/debates on a level playing field, when the minority is coming in from a lifetime of societal oppression, and who-knows-what that just happened to them recently or in the past. maybe they just came in after a long day of discriminatory BS, or maybe what someone said harks back to a particularly horrible experience that may even be triggering. minority groups don’t owe it to anyone to censor how discrimination makes them feel, and aside from that, i don’t think anyone here was saying anything truly unnecessary (aside from a troll or two).
it is the hateful attitude that is the real issue, i agree. but more often than not, hateful feelings is what fuels that hate speech in the first place. there are people like the burches or louis c.k. where i don’t feel like it’s actually homophobic, but if i’m in a conversation with an average joe and they start throwing “fag” around, i’m going to start thinking they have some issues.
i have the same problem with the reply button haha
anyway, good point about emotion. its hard to negate that aspect of a person’s own personality / react based on prior experiences. i didn’t fully consider that in this discussion as i can’t read the tone that some people are using in their objections to the podcast (the internet really is a crappy communicator when it comes to that).
glad we discussed it. when i saw people getting upset about what i said i felt that i had misrepresented myself. thanks for being receptive to / critical of my revised points.
my favourite is when it turns out that objecting to discrimination is itself discrimination
thanks for changing my whole worldview buddy
see, this is why you should be more specific in your criticism in the initial post – that is NOT at all what i am saying. i am saying thinking “the gay people NEED me to speak up for them” is a faulty and harmful viewpoint.
i am not arguing that we shouldn’t speak out against racism / sexism / discrimination because we absolutely should. however we need to make sure that we are doing it for the right reason. if you only adhere to a PC vocabulary while still thinking in an archaic and prejudiced way, you arent getting to the root of the problem, you are only covering your harmful views with a facade of accepting behavior.
we also need to understand that no one needs us to do anything for them – we should do things because we want to help them, not because we are the heroic and noble knight in shining armor coming to their aid (see: sandra bullock). i really don’t understand what is harmful about what i am arguing. please, be specific in your objection. not only so that i can potentially fix any misunderstanding, but so that i can access my own point of view…
i’d be interested in hearing the burches talk about this again in the next HAWPcast, now that there’s been a lot of discussion on it!
Regarding your discussion of taking away the power of slurs by excessive use.
The difference between black people using the word ‘nigger’ to take away its potency, and you using the word ‘fag’ for the same purpose is the meaning that you attach to it. When black people use the word nigger, they usually use it to mean person, or black person in a non-offensive context. This means that the derogatory meaning is downgraded, because the new meaning the word has been given is less offensive. When you use the word ‘fag’ to refer to an annoying or bad thing or person, you are adding to the offensiveness of the word by using it in a derogatory manner. Even if you aren’t using it to refer directly to a gay person, you are adding more negative meaning to a word that is used for gay people by the context in which you use it. If you actually believe that the potency of the word can be reduced by changing its use, the way to do this is to use it to refer to gays in a positive manner. Unfortunately, we are still in a time when it is too offensive for straight people to be able to do this without it being construed as an insult. If you look at the word “queer” you can see how fag can change, however. Queer was originally used as an insult, and was then reclaimed by LGBT people as a political term and is now so changed in meaning that is it acceptable for straight people to use it inoffensively as well. Hopefully we can do the same with fag.
I can’t believe people still get so hurt over words. In a world where racism and bias against different beliefs and ways of life still does indeed exist in some form, words are the least of anyone’s worries.
Literally, think about it, there are people who get offended at being called ‘weird’, I’m not joking. I have been yelled at and cussed at for calling someone weird because it’s ‘hurtful’. Words are nothing, people need to stop freaking out over what is literally nothing more than the glorified vibrations of diminutive particles (aka, sound). It hurts no one, in my humble opinion, anything that can be defeated by placing your hands over your ears is not something that people should cry so much over, it simply isn’t worth it.
That being said, there are three types of people offended by things like this.
1) Perpetual victims, they think everything is a huge deal and hurts them DRASTICALLY.
2) Relentless advocates, people who are SO OBSESSED with making sure that no one is offended that they try to stomp out anything that could possibly be construed as offensive.
3) People who believe *ahem* ‘hate-speech’ leads to violence. While there are half-way decent (but not really) arguments to be made here. There is no real science to back it up, true hate-speech is a biproduct of racism, not a cause of it.
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Well I hope George Clooney hates Angelina Jolie too and does encourage Brad Pitt to cheat on her.
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I heard Dr. Who was amazing but never watched it.
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Anthony and Ash Burch and Ashley Davis and Justin Yngelmo are writers and game critics who make surreal videos in their spare time (or adorable ones, in Ashley's case). The videos aren't that bad.
Anthony, former features editor for Destructoid and creator of the Rev Rants series (now defunct) currently works at Gearbox Software and co-stars in Anthony Saves the World on The Escapist.
Ash acts in other crap, like the feature-length film Must Come Down, and maintains the blog How Games Saved My Life.
Davis likes to draw Pokémon and under appreciated video game characters on nomarios. She used to do Once Upon a Pixel, which aired on Gametrailers.
Justin constantly shoots web video for everywhere. He's developing a personal website right now.
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